how much better is a disc brake front end?

[390Nut]

I don't have to discredit you, just point out that you did it to yourself.

From post #39:

Also drum brakes actually provide more stopping power than a disc could.

And from your post above:

I also know that discs provide better stopping ppower than drums...

You'd make a great politician. Would you like some wine with that crow?

[rgoot01]

Whatever. Maybe we should spend more time reading the posts in their entirety and understand what its subject matter is and you would have ultimately understood that I am not promoting the use of drums on dudes truck. Merely I was trying to show how the use of drums on a class 8 is no reason to continue the use on a p/up. My defense was in that you cannot compare the usage between the two due to the apps. being different yet the same. To clarify and I am sure you will agree disc brakes on a p/up is definately better and worth the conversion, however the use on a class 8 as of yet no, due to many variables that still make the use of drums the better choice. But understand to that there are some trucks out there that have the slack adjusters on the front brakes adjusted so that when brake pressure is applied the steers actually do not grab. So in conclusion yes drums provide more stopping power on Class 8 due to surface area of shoe however on a passenger vehicle discs provide more stopping power. Until the performance of discs on Class8 is proven as fact and not someones belief drums will still be the brakes of choice due to the stopping power on these vehicles. Bare in mind that I am refferimng to the entire system,steer and drive axles as a whole, not just the steer which is the subject of the original post. Also my support for drums providing more stopping power was in reference to the class8 and my support for stopping power of discs is in reference to passenger vehicles. The large percentage of braking on a drum equpped class 8 comes form the rear axles as oppossed to a disc equiped passenger vehicle where the greater percentage comes from the front axle. This is why you should not compare the two as justificatio. So, no, I did not discredit myself. You just need to read the post in its entirety.

[ToughOldFord]

[390Nut]

C'mon, tell us how you really feel!

Whats that line from Cool Hand Luke?

"Some men, you just can't reach."

[rgoot01]

You're obviuosly the one that can't be reached. Due to the fact that you have your blinders on I will simply state. Given that we have strayed from the original subject lets leave it as "We're done"!

[390Nut]

No, you are the one who can't be reached. I posted various links to various articles and information sources to BACK UP my "opinion", which in this case, with proof, becomes FACT.

Your "experience" is simply still "opinion" as you haven't done ANYTHING to back it up.

Show us a reliable source that proves irrefutably that drum brakes have MORE STOPPING POWER than comparable disk brakes, as you claim, or your claims are nothing but mis-information.

As for your "certification" I've known and met a LOT of people in my nearly 40 years that have certifications, degrees, factory work authorizations, and "experience", that I wouldn't let scrub my toilet. All that little piece of paper in your wallet means is that you can memorize stuff in a text book and perform the same tasks they teach you how to do. Sort of like training a monkey.

As for the words "burgeoning chef" in my profile, that doesn't mean jack-sh|t. I could put "professional dog walker" in there and you'ld probably think that's all I know.

[rgoot01]

Whatever. Don't be upset because you are a f!@#$%g idiot. Yor a f@#!@$^%g chef in Oregon and a dub#@! to boot cause evidently your still stewing on this. You obviously won't quit unless you hear someone tell you that you were right. I cannot give you that satisfaction so B$@w me. They can boot me off this sight for typing this but I don't care cause I am over idiots.

[390Nut]

I see you can read really well, too.

[rgoot01]

http://farmindustrynews.com/mag/farming ... g_power_2/

Here' my proof! Read the first paragraph on drum brakes.

Now what???

Would you be willing to agree that we are both right?

[AlleyCat]

Uh gentlemen...PLEASE lets tone it down a bit.You are both intellegent human beings and both have valid points.

rgoot01, with all due respect I am also a diesel tech, please choose your words more carefully so you appear to be the professional your credentials say you are.

My qualifications are:
ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck Technician
ASE Master School Bus Technician
Pennsylvania State Inspection Mechanic Class 7
Class A Commercial Driver endorsed for tank,hazmat and multiple trailers
Caterpillar Certified Truck Engine Technician
Navistar Truck Engine Technician
Factory Trained Hale Fire Pump Technician
Fuller Trans Technician
30 years experience as a tech and heavy wrecker operater.

[1971ford]

maybe someome can tell me what tools my dad will need when he goes in, so he can do it quick..er ?

He will need jack stands and some sort of jack unless the yard has it up off of its wheels by the frame already.
I can get the socket size later but he'll need some 1/2" drive sockets/wrench, end wrenches (for brake lines), 3/8" drive sockets/wrench, wire cutters (if you have to cut brake hoses), 1/2" drive BREAKER BAR for sure, and perhaps a small sledge.
He'll want to loosen and remove the rear radius arm nuts first. If he pulls the coils and shocks first, it'll be real hard to get a socket over them with the front dropped way down! It's probably a tad quicker to remove the top shock nuts next and cut/remove brake hoses. Next, pull the pitman arm from the steering box. Then, with a jack supporting the beam (one at a time), remove the clip from the top of the coil. Lastly, the pivot bolts are removed and the whole thing drops down and should be pulled forward to free the radius arms from their brackets.
It took a friend and me an hour or two to pull mine. I hope he'll have some help to lift and/or carry it! I hope I'm not forgetting something too! Good luck!

THANKS!
1)for give awesome info,
2) for being ON TOPIC!

im about to print your post out for my dad.
thanks again

[390Nut]

http://farmindustrynews.com/mag/farming ... g_power_2/

Here' my proof! Read the first paragraph on drum brakes.

Now what???

Would you be willing to agree that we are both right?

Plain and simple, I am not trying to prove you WRONG, or prove myself RIGHT. I am trying to get CORRECT information posted on this site, the main focus and reason WHY it exists. Making blanket statements; "drum brakes have more stopping power than a disk could" is bad form, and while I try very hard not to, I know I've done it as well. Probably will again at some point, but I'll worry about it when it happens.

Now, to answer your question.

Not exactly, and here's why (highlighted in bold, in that first paragraph).

Drum brakes
Last December, ArvinMeritor brought a group of journalists to a research test track in Ohio, where the company demonstrated that drum brakes can outperform discs in a 60-mph emergency stop, if they are fitted with more powerful air chambers and larger friction material.

What happens if you upgraded a disk brake front end the same way, Perhaps put modern dual calipers and a much better air system on a disk brake front end? Sure, design, purchase, and maintenance cost goes up overall, but pad life will be extended with FOUR pads working instead of two (on each wheel), meaning maintenance timeframes will be farther apart, and braking performance is phenomenally enhanced.

It's like the guy down the street telling me that his stock 460 Bronco has more power than any 390 I could build (more specifically the one in my truck). Guess what! He's very wrong, and I proved it to him the old fashioned way (and I know where the black marks are to prove it!), because I built it that way. Now if he does the same basic build design to his 460 (same spec/sized cam, .030 over, bumped compression to the same amount, better intake/exhaust, better induction, etc) he'd walk away from me like I was standing still. If both engines are stock build, he'ld still walk away from me, but he'ld have to work for it.

Same principal.

If you keep reading past the first paragraph, it goes into more detail as to why disk brakes work better. In the third paragraph it even speaks about reasons NOT to go much larger on drum brakes.

This is not to say that drum brakes DONT work well, and that upgrading their various systems and components is a fruitless endeavor. Quite the opposite is true. However, three paragraphs down that same article tells, quite openly, that disk brakes are superior, and why, and different reasons WHY they aren't widely used here in the U.S.

But [the targets] won't be achieved without adding cost and complexity to our vehicles.â€

[rgoot01]

I would like to apologize to 390nut. AlleyCat your absolutely right. 390nut you to are right. I was not being professional. In fact I would like to apologize to everyone for my ridiculous rant.

[390Nut]

I would like to apologize to 390nut. AlleyCat your absolutely right. 390nut you to are right. I was not being professional. In fact I would like to apologize to everyone for my ridiculous rant.

Debating knowledge is good. Ranting is bad (believe me, I know that one all to well )

As I said above, I'm after the correct information to be posted here. And, when I believe I am right I'm going to say so, and I'll also try to back it up as best I can. Most here feel the same way about the information gathering that goes on here, it's one of the reasons why we're here. If there is information to the contrary from what I believe to be true, then so be it. I've taken my lumps before, and I'm sure I will have to again in the future.

Apology accepted for the rant (and the name calling ) but don't be apologetic for trying to prove your point.

My apologies to Ryan for helping muck up his thread.

[Chaseman]

anyway I guess I have to kick the dead horse so , Doesn't the clamping action on the disks provide better stopping power compared to the outward pressure on drums? Also the better airflow over hot stuff to cool down?