Turbo

[alvinator]

Have any of you came across a place that sells Turbocharger kits for our trucks with 360/390 engines? I have been thinking about putting one on my 68.

[DuckRyder]

I think you are going to have to build that kit yourself. Corky Bell wrote a book (possibly more than one) that I'd suggest you look into.

Without getting into a discussion of turbochargers vs superchargers I think the fabrication for a supercharger would be less involved, although still not trivial.

[ares360]

DuckRyder is right. to hook up a turbo on a carb engine is really difficult because it puts too much pressure on the carb. I read an article a while back about it.

[binder56jd]

Alv---here's a primer


http://www.automotivearticles.com/Super ... ger_.shtml


another

http://www.importtuner.com/tech/0609_im ... index.html


and a supplier

http://www.dyersblowers.com/

[sgs]

There is a guy in our town by the name of Furo Racecraft He does all sorts of Race fabrication and is a real craftsman. He works with a lot of Turbo stuff. He uses a company called Turbonetics for figuring his applications and also supplying a lot of the parts required for conversions.

sgs

[FreakysFords]

If I were to +T an FE (actually plan to, but definitely a future project), I'd have to go with a scratch built tubing intake, MSnS EMS with 4.6 (or aftermarket, depending) fuel rails and red top injectors. MS = no need for MAF or MAS so it's a pretty easy setup. For ease of install (for the nS) I'd likely go with single wire motorcycle coils mounted out of sight.

http://www.megasquirt.org/megasquirt.html

Having +T'd a few carb setups over the years I can tell you this: The carb options are very limited without a bucket type mount (and that's super dangerous and you can't work on your vehicle without tearing it down first) and it WILL be finicky. Carb +T setups are best left to small engines and tiny carbs. In my opinion though it's just too easy to swap the MSnS

[averagef250]

Do not even think about towing anything with a turbo gas engine. Turbocharged spark engines are great for high HP, low load conditions where the engine will not see high combustion temps.

The FE bottom end is one of the toughest out there. 4 bolt mains are a bandaid for crap engineering/metalurgy. The 5.9 Cummins runs 2 bolt mains and has a very similiar lower block design to the Ford FE. Pullers and racers often run the 5.9 over 5000 RPM and the 3.9 has held up over 9000 RPM with 300 PSI manifold pressure. The stock OE Cummins bottom end has no issue handling 1500 lb/ft and the 2003+ Commonrail lower end is said to handle nearly double that reliably.

Turbos work on heat and the expansion of gas. They don't work on airflow unrelated to temp. If you think about how high temperatures and spark ignition engines do not work well together you'll see how a turbo tow gas engine is a bad idea. On a turbodiesel the harder you work it, the more heat it makes, the more the turbo works, the more air you pack through the engine, the more fuel you can add until you come to a limitation either fuel or air.

In a gasoline engine the limitation is preignition since the fuel lights off so easily.

Drop a 12V Cummins and a 5 speed in your truck for less than $2500. You can't rebuild your FE for that, definitely can't turbo/inject any old engine for that.

[FreakysFords]

Correct. That's why for years turbos on gasoline engines were novelties. Now however, read into pulse tuning. On a diesel, pulse tuning would do nothing for it in the long run, but on gasoline engines, pulse tuning means everything. Turbo gassers are STILL not for everyone as it takes some time and will power to get it right. However, I'm running 18 psi (under standard conditions, more's there when/if we need it) on a 351w in our ERV tow truck. It has to be able to go wherever, whenever and it's been doing it for nearly 5 years without complaint. (currently a hy35 btw)
In short, +t to a gas engine is NOT what it used to be, it's now feasible and practical if designed correctly and not just bolting something on.
Cam selection is VERY important, you want minimal valve overlap to avoid pushing fuel into the turbo.
You want to select your turbo per compressor map while keeping in mind that you really don't want to spool until you have load (pulse tuning comes in here)
You can calculate what's needed for IC, but that's one area where as big as you can manage with other systems is a good thing.
That's just the basics.

Pulse tuning.
As you put a load on a gas engine, each cyl will pulse exhaust out harder per same rpm. (when driving to slow in too high a gear, you can often feel this).
Pulse tuning takes advantage of this in using those little punches to spin the turbo, rather than just expanding gas (when done well, it won't even spool without load).
This means that the turbo comes in as needed. Obviously getting on it and cutting up will load it and boost you'll have. Come work time the same is true. When load comes on, so does boost.
There are 2 major things to get right for pulse tuning (other than cam). Headers must pair common pulses and keep them divided to the collector. Turbo must be sized to correct compressor map and turbine spin (hot side ready for pulse operation).

Lastly is where so many people kill otherwise good and correct turbo engines (gas and diesel) and that's getting them hot, then shutting them off. If you've driven under any load what so ever, or cut up a little, let the engine idle long enough to cool the turbo (usually less than 3 mins on the worst ones) before shutting down.
That's a whole nuther lesson.

Also, if you want to look further into +T, look into aftermarket EMS. I personally prefer bolling and grippo's work (Mega Squirt). In fact I also love MS&S which is adding ignition control to your MS box. This can be dist controlled or as I prefer, distributorless (with tone ring).

[averagef250]

That's very interesting.

I tend to disagree a little on the turbo cooldown principal. I've gone through countless junk Holset turbos (probably have a pickup load of core parts in my shed) and they're very simple creatures. The turbo on my 3.9 powered 71 gets worked very hard. It's an H1C cartridge and compressor from an 89 dodge 5.9 with 490K miles on it and sh*tty maintenance and 12CM turbine housing from an HX35. The bushings are tight as the day the thing was made, the wheels and shaft are perfect. If I unhook the wastegate I can peg my 60 pound gauge instantly, but there isn't any gain with what I've got past 30 PSI. I run that engine very hard and never let it cool down before shutting it off. If I shut it off quickly after some hard throttle I can listen to the compressor wind down for 30 seconds or so after the engine's off.

I don't see how it's a bad thing to let it cool down, but don't see any relationship in my experience with cooldown time or post oiling with extended turbo life. Of the turbos I've torn down the one constant I've seen directly related to short turbo life is the balance of the wheels and shafts. Turbos that had short lives had lots of balance marks on thier parts. Turbos that have very long lives have little to none for balance marks. Basically, dynamic balancing doesn't work perfect for a part that spins 30K+ RPM. A part that's made in perfect balance without having material removed from a convenient place to make it work is a far better piece than something that needs fixing to be correct.

I've also run some incredibly sloppy Holset turbos that held up great and made all they power a new one should. If the sealing ring grooves and thrust plate's good it's good to go in my opinion regardless of how much the blades hit the housings. Oil pressure centers the shaft as soon as you tap the key.

[FreakysFords]

Guess I could have explained that better. A VERY tiny amount of oil remains in the center section of the turbo. As the oil continues to flow, hot oil leaves the turbo. After you shut down, you have a tiny amount of oil to contain a large amount of heat and it often cokes it.....

That's NOT to say that water cooled turbos suffer so badly from this, OR that normal driving is an issue, but rather raising cain and then shutting down. Should have clarified that. btw, the holset is VERY under rated IMO, some of the toughest out there.

[court1100f]

this may be a dumb question but. it occurs to me turbos were being used on gasoline engines in the 80s infact Buick had the 1980 Buick Regal limited 3.8L Turbo that ran a Rochester and a Turbo. it came factory equiped like this,I know because I owned one. then theres the Ford Thunder bird Turbo Coupe that ran a 2.3L with a turbo charger it was fuel injected but still a gasoline burning engine. and also the earlier Ford Mustang SVO ran a turbo charged 2.3L Aswell....Turbos to my knowledge were used on gasoline engines way before diesel in automotive applications (not Big Rigs) as far back as I can remember my understanding of it is A. lower compressions ideal 8.0:1-9.0:1 max compression. B. you have to strengthen up the bottem end to withstand the added strain the turbo puts on it. C. you need adequate fuel for the increased air intake so you don't go lean. D. an Inter cooler helps alot on the intake charge temp and boosts power due to the cooler more condensed charge. So why the general attitude turbos were/are designed for diesels when infact they were installed on gas engines then adapted to diesels one of the first of which was the Ford 7.3L Turbo Diesel

[70shortwide]

turbos were on big diesel trucks long before gas cars

[court1100f]

big rigs I can't speak for. But as far as trucks and cars are concerned the Car/Truck/Van Manufacturers have been factory installing turbos since the beginning of the 80s and we are talking about automotive applications here not Big Rigs aka 18 Wheelers

[DuckRyder]

Chevrolet sold the Corvair Spyder 180hp turbo in the early 60's. It was fast...

Volvo and Saab have both sold a multitude of turbos cerainly beginning in the very ealry 80's, BMW sold a Turbo 2002 in the early 70's...

[Happy_Camper]

First, thanks guys for chiming in on this.
From what I've read so far, and averagef250 alluded to, the 390 has poor combustion chambers for boost. From my experience sbf engines have turbulent chambers, and can be easily modified for flow at a reasonable cost. It is easy to modify the cooling system of an sbf for max efficiency, also at a reasonable cost. So they take to boost like a calve takes to milk.
When I'm ready, I'll call the guys at Survival. There are all kinds of options, like methanol injection, electronic controllers (EFI and boost), intercoolers, etc. But it really boils down to what can be done with the combustion chambers, and cooling system on the 390, and what will be involved in increasing the engine compartment air exchange rate.
We usually end up getting to the campground late at night, and like to be as quiet as possible so as not to disturb others. We also don't like the thought of adding more diesel exhaust smell in the campgrounds (there's all ready a lot of diesel units now). We'd probably reconsider the 5th wheel before going to diesel.