Got BC # 16 stopping on a dime now!

Suspension, steering, brakes, wheels & tires

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basketcase0302
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Got BC # 16 stopping on a dime now!

Post by basketcase0302 »

BC # 16 is giving me fits about getting her brakes working! I have no pedal at all. :hmm:
A little history on the brakes are:
I'm on my third master cylinder now, (original would not seem to bleed/brand new one bench bled/yet no pedal/and the third one yesterday bench bled fine/yet still no pedal).
I've ran all new lines and relocated the brake line distribution block above the PS box.
All new wheel cylinders/new shoes/one new rear drum/all hardware cleaned up and verified for proper installation. I'm gonna go back and check the adjustment on each wheel this morning.
The power brake booster was working fine when i started the build last October, although I haven't hooked the vacuum line back up to it. I'll do that later this morning. That shouldn't matter should it? Seems like I remember having a pedal even without the engine running and booster hooked up?
I broke my mityvac bleeding tool a few months back attempting to bleed all the lines, (I can't even get enough pedal to bleed the lines at present)!

Do I remember reading about "recentering" brake distribution blocks?
Or does this only apply to a proportioning valve?


Thanks in advance! :thup:
Last edited by basketcase0302 on Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jeff
http://www.fordification.com/forum/view ... 22&t=46251
SOLD-71 F-350 dually flatbed, 302 / .030 over V-8 with a "baby"C-6, B & M truckshifter, Dana70/4.11 ratio, intermittent wipers, tilt steering, full LED lighting on the flat bed, and no stereo yet (this way I can hear the rattles to diagnose)! SOLD!
Many Ford bumps / one 76' EB / and several dents through the years.
A lot of "oddball" Ford parts collected from working on them for 34 years now!
2008 Ford Escape 4 x 4
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70_F100
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Re: Need some brake help please guys!

Post by 70_F100 »

basketcase0302 wrote: The power brake booster was working fine when i started the build last October, although I haven't hooked the vacuum line back up to it. I'll do that later this morning. That shouldn't matter should it? Seems like I remember having a pedal even without the engine running and booster hooked up?
I broke my mityvac bleeding tool a few months back attempting to bleed all the lines, (I can't even get enough pedal to bleed the lines at present)!


No, the engine does not have to be running to bleed the brakes. Remember, when an engine dies, you have about three brake applications before all vacuum is used up, then you have to hope you have a strong leg to get the vehicle stopped on just about any vehicle. :doh:

basketcase0302 wrote:Do I remember reading about "recentering" brake distribution blocks?
Or does this only apply to a proportioning valve?
The plunger in the distribution block DOES have to be recentered, but that’s to turn off the warning light on the dash. However, if it sticks to one side or the other, it CAN cause problems with either the front or rear brakes.

The problem you’re having sounds almost like the master cylinder isn’t returning to the home position once the pedal is depressed.

Have someone press the pedal while you watch the fluid in the master cylinder. When the pedal is released, you should see sort of a “fountain” of brake fluid as the pedal comes back up. Since you said the master cylinder works fine for a bench bleed, it should provide the same results on the truck.

If you don’t get the “fountain”, check to make sure that the push rod on the master cylinder side of the booster is working correctly. If it’s not seated in the booster correctly, it will hold the master cylinder piston in the “applied” position. Did the master cylinder slide easily all the way against the booster when you installed it, or did you have to pull it up with the nuts? Pull the master cylinder off and make sure the push rod length is correct. Measure the distance from the mounting surface of the cylinder to the bottom of the piston, then measure how far the push rod extends past the mounting surface of the booster. Those two measurements should be pretty close. While you’ve got the master off of the booster, have someone press the pedal while you watch to make sure the push rod moves with the pedal.

If all of this is good, loosen the bleeder screws on all four wheels and let the system “gravity bleed” for a while. Since you replaced all the hydraulics, there may be so much air that you’re just not giving the fluid time to get through all of the system. Not probable, but possible.

A trick I learned a long time ago was not to do the “classic” bench bleed when replacing a master cylinder. I always bolt the master cylinder up, leave the lines disconnected, then fill up one end of it. Then, I have someone depress the pedal while I hold my finger over the corresponding port. Once I have all of the air out of that section of the reservoir, I connect the line and loosen it slightly while the brake pedal is depressed. Repeat for the other section. It's a LOT less hassle!!! :D

Since you’re pretty much starting from scratch, once you determine that the booster is working and adjusted correctly, just work on one end at a time, using the procedure I described above. It really doesn’t matter whether you do the front or rear first, just make sure that you start with the wheel furthest from the master cylinder on whichever end you decide to start. Once you have brakes on that axle, do the other axle in the same manner. After you have good pedal, go back and reset (recenter) the valve in the distribution block by having someone depress the pedal while you slightly loosen a bleeder screw. You will most likely find that the end that you started with is the one that has the valve off-centered.

Give this a try, and let us know what happens!!! :thup:
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools talk because they have to say something.--Plato
Why is it that there's seldom time to fix it right the first time, but there's always time to fix it right the second time???

That's not an oil leak :nono: That's SWEAT from all that HORSEPOWER!! :thup:
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Re: Need some brake help please guys!

Post by basketcase0302 »

70_F100,

I had already tried a few things before now reading this, (and once again it's pouring down rain). :cry:

I gravity bled each wheel this morning, (about 30 minutes per wheel) and adjusted each wheel so that i can hear the pads just start to touch the drum while jacked off the ground. The above produced no results. Yet the pedal does return to it's uppermost position where it should inside the cab.

I'll try the other items you suggested in the morning, (not gonna lay on the wet ground at this time of the day). I'm beginning to think I've gotten a bad rebuilt MC.
Thanks! :thup:
Jeff
http://www.fordification.com/forum/view ... 22&t=46251
SOLD-71 F-350 dually flatbed, 302 / .030 over V-8 with a "baby"C-6, B & M truckshifter, Dana70/4.11 ratio, intermittent wipers, tilt steering, full LED lighting on the flat bed, and no stereo yet (this way I can hear the rattles to diagnose)! SOLD!
Many Ford bumps / one 76' EB / and several dents through the years.
A lot of "oddball" Ford parts collected from working on them for 34 years now!
2008 Ford Escape 4 x 4
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70_F100
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Re: Need some brake help please guys!

Post by 70_F100 »

I'd believe a booster problem before I would believe a bad MC, especially since you said this is the third one.

If the pushrod on the MC side of the booster isn't right, it keeps the MC piston from coming all the way back, while still allowing the pedal to come back to its home position.

In other words, there are two pushrods in the booster, not just one going all the way through.
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools talk because they have to say something.--Plato
Why is it that there's seldom time to fix it right the first time, but there's always time to fix it right the second time???

That's not an oil leak :nono: That's SWEAT from all that HORSEPOWER!! :thup:
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basketcase0302
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Re: Need some brake help please guys!

Post by basketcase0302 »

10-4 on the booster pushrod, I'll verify that in the morning.
Thanks again. :thup:
Jeff
http://www.fordification.com/forum/view ... 22&t=46251
SOLD-71 F-350 dually flatbed, 302 / .030 over V-8 with a "baby"C-6, B & M truckshifter, Dana70/4.11 ratio, intermittent wipers, tilt steering, full LED lighting on the flat bed, and no stereo yet (this way I can hear the rattles to diagnose)! SOLD!
Many Ford bumps / one 76' EB / and several dents through the years.
A lot of "oddball" Ford parts collected from working on them for 34 years now!
2008 Ford Escape 4 x 4
User avatar
basketcase0302
100% FORDified!
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Re: Got BC # 16 stopping on a dime now!

Post by basketcase0302 »

70_F100,
From the bottom of my heart thank you my friend! :thup:
You hit the nail right on the head.
It seems that my CRS is getting worse... :doh:
Way back around December I had fabbed the pedal assembly and also cleaned and painted the booster pushrod. Well I had screwed the adjustment all the way in after applying anti-seize to it, (so I wouldn't get paint on the threads when I painted it). :D

I measured the stroke on the MC end of the booster this morning like you said, (only had about 1" of stroke). Then measured the needed stroke of the MC, (it needed about 1 and 7/16" to depress the plunger in the MC).
Went inside the cab, (hard on the back) and lengthened the stroke by 1/2" at first. Kinda' felt a pedal of sorts, (yet spongy). Then gave it another 1/4" and now she stops on a dime, (well ok after I loosened up on the RR duals that were locking up). :lol:

Thank you again for the quick and accurate reply!
Jeff
http://www.fordification.com/forum/view ... 22&t=46251
SOLD-71 F-350 dually flatbed, 302 / .030 over V-8 with a "baby"C-6, B & M truckshifter, Dana70/4.11 ratio, intermittent wipers, tilt steering, full LED lighting on the flat bed, and no stereo yet (this way I can hear the rattles to diagnose)! SOLD!
Many Ford bumps / one 76' EB / and several dents through the years.
A lot of "oddball" Ford parts collected from working on them for 34 years now!
2008 Ford Escape 4 x 4
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