Engine mount replacement help

Engine, ignition, fuel, cooling, exhaust

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robroy
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Re: Engine mount replacement help

Post by robroy »

Hey Steve!
FLATBEDFORD wrote:Thanks for the pics Robroy. I figured that you would have something to contribute.
You're most welcome!
FLATBEDFORD wrote:I think OEM style replacement will be fine for my truck. The 360 is stock and the truck doesn't work that hard very often.
I'm sure you're probably right! After all, the previous mount seemed to hold up for a good number of decades.
FLATBEDFORD wrote:I'm just trying to get an idea of what I'm up against.
I can relate!

Hey Steve, I know that it's hard to find mounts that are made in the USA these days. I happen to have a right hand side FE mount (C7TZ-6038-H/C7TA-6038-N) that's a genuine Ford part, and it's unused. I bought it back when I was thinking of going with OEM style mounts on my project.

If you can't find a USA made right-hand mount and would like this one, I'd be happy to send it to you.

Robroy
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Re: Engine mount replacement help

Post by DuckRyder »

70_F100 wrote:The weight of the engine is not nearly as much as the load it gets when turning 2,000 RPM under load.
It has oil pressure when turning 2000 RPM under load.
Robert
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70_F100
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Re: Engine mount replacement help

Post by 70_F100 »

DuckRyder wrote:
70_F100 wrote:The weight of the engine is not nearly as much as the load it gets when turning 2,000 RPM under load.
It has oil pressure when turning 2000 RPM under load.
The oil flow is there for lubrication when the crankshaft is turning.

The load is a dynamic load.

With the engine stopped, there is no need for lubrication, and the load is a static load.
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools talk because they have to say something.--Plato
Why is it that there's seldom time to fix it right the first time, but there's always time to fix it right the second time???

That's not an oil leak :nono: That's SWEAT from all that HORSEPOWER!! :thup:
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Re: Engine mount replacement help

Post by DuckRyder »

70_F100 wrote:
DuckRyder wrote:
70_F100 wrote:The weight of the engine is not nearly as much as the load it gets when turning 2,000 RPM under load.
It has oil pressure when turning 2000 RPM under load.
The oil flow is there for lubrication when the crankshaft is turning.

The load is a dynamic load.

With the engine stopped, there is no need for lubrication, and the load is a static load.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Robert
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Re: Engine mount replacement help

Post by 70_F100 »

DuckRyder wrote:I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
We can do that. :thup:

But I'm still curious as to why you think it makes a difference.

Take, for instance, a wheel bearing or axle bearing. They also have a dynamic load when moving (bumps in the road, etc). When the vehicle is parked, the load becomes static.

Just like an engine bearing, there is residual lubrication on the bearings when motion is suspended.

Similarly, when an engine is stopped, there is still a static load on the crankshaft and bearings, due to belt tension.

From an engineering perspective, there is absolutely no difference.

I worked as a service technician for more than 20 years, before going back to school to get an engineering degree, and I saw literally HUNDREDS of times when an engine was raised up using a jack and a block of wood under the crank pulley. It's standard practice, and has been for many years.

Please explain to me why you think there is a difference. :?
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools talk because they have to say something.--Plato
Why is it that there's seldom time to fix it right the first time, but there's always time to fix it right the second time???

That's not an oil leak :nono: That's SWEAT from all that HORSEPOWER!! :thup:
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Re: Engine mount replacement help

Post by DuckRyder »

Well, if we want to discuss it any further we can take it to E-Mail or PM's - since we have agreed to disagree.

However, the reason I think there is a difference is that the crankshaft is designed to ride on a film of oil under pressure, the journal should not be placing a load directly on the bearing shell. By jacking on the crankshaft (obviously without oil film integrity) a load is placed directly onto the bearing shell (and a relatively small area as well).

Again, I am not saying there will be immediate terrible consequences, but I think it is a good idea to avoid it if possible.
Robert
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"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -- Jeff Cooper
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Re: Engine mount replacement help

Post by 70_F100 »

DuckRyder, thanks for the reply. I'd like reply to this one in the forum, rather than by PM's, etc., because I think it makes a good topic for discussion, and may provide insight to other forum members.

Okay, what you said is good, and mostly supports my previous post. :thup:

Correct, the crankshaft is designed to ride on a film of oil under pressure. That is true when there is rotation of the shaft. At rest, there is no flow of oil, because it is not required. However, there is still a film of oil left on the crankshaft and the bearings that will provide lubrication when the engine is turned over and until the oil pump supplies additional lubrication.

You are correct, a load is placed directly on the bearing shell when the engine is raised by the crankshaft. The load is placed on a small surface area, as you suggest. Again, :thup:

However, I refer to my previous post, where I comment that the static loading is, for all intents and purposes, identical to the forces encountered by a wheel bearing at rest. I also stand by my statement that the same loading on the engine bearings is presented simply by the belts themselves, and if we were to research further, it's possible we might find that the loading contributed by belts is as great as that incurred by raising the engine via the balancer. Maybe not. A lot of calculations would be required to determine that, including belt tension, the angle at which the load is applied, number of belts, etc. You have to also consider that the load exerted by jacking the engine up via the balancer is a short-term situation, whereas the load from the belts is perpetual. :drive:

Based on your explanation of your reasoning, I see your point. I concede that lifting the engine via the balancer is not the perfect way to do so, but it is an accepted practice, and in all my years working with cars, trucks and heavy equipment, particularly with diesel engines, I have never seen one damaged by doing so. On the other hand, a viscous damper, used on diesel engines, can be damaged using this method, as it has a weight inside that is surrounded by oil so that it floats and moves to the point required for balance, as that point may change due to clutch wear and numerous other factors. :hd:

Ideally, the engine should be lifted using a hoist, with attachment points on top of the engine. In the real world, that can sometimes be difficult to accomplish. I'm sure we've both seen engines supported by a jack (with a block of wood) under the oil pan. Is the oil pan designed to support the weight? Not hardly. But, in reality, design engineers know that sometimes this has to be done during repairs, so they engineer a "Factor Of Safety" into their design, and determine the shape as well as metal thickness with this in mind. Same with a crankshaft and bearings. I can say this with authority because I'm an engineer for a large supplier to all of the OEM's. :yes:

I think we've both presented our arguments clearly and concisely, and we can, as you suggested, agree to disagree at this point. Others now have facts from both of us on which to base their opinions as to which way they feel is the correct way. :woohoo:
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools talk because they have to say something.--Plato
Why is it that there's seldom time to fix it right the first time, but there's always time to fix it right the second time???

That's not an oil leak :nono: That's SWEAT from all that HORSEPOWER!! :thup:
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Re: Engine mount replacement help

Post by DuckRyder »

It sounds like we don't disagree as much as it appears on the surface. :wink:
Robert
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Re: Engine mount replacement help

Post by fordman »

i think both of you make good points. and i have to say there is no winner. on the fact of damage that could occur in my opinion. my only thoughts are that the balancer is round and the wood on the jack is flat. round object can roll on flat surfaces. i had it happen to me. i am not saying that it happens all of the time. just that it can happen and is not a safe way to do the job. if a cradle were to be used to prevent the balncer from turning then i would think that would be safer. i have no comments on wheather any damage could or could not be made just by puttign pressure on the crank. but it is a very good point. and i would still avoid doing it several times to the same engine. hey you know the saying cheese happens.
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Re: Engine mount replacement help

Post by 70_F100 »

DuckRyder wrote:It sounds like we don't disagree as much as it appears on the surface. :wink:
:lol: :lol: :lol: I think we can agree to agree now!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools talk because they have to say something.--Plato
Why is it that there's seldom time to fix it right the first time, but there's always time to fix it right the second time???

That's not an oil leak :nono: That's SWEAT from all that HORSEPOWER!! :thup:
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Re: Engine mount replacement help

Post by SteveC »

ive seen a crank shaft bent that way. Id be afraid to balance it on a block of wood with nothing but the hope of it not rolling off and coming down on my fingers... cause that may be the end of your hand at that point
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Re: Engine mount replacement help

Post by FLATBEDFORD »

I got all three mounts for $25 from my parts guy. I removed the nut on the driver's side mount, put a bottle jack under the bottom pulley and pumped away. This lifted the engine nicely. The Pass. side mount fell apart and the engine lifted straight up. I jammed some lumber between the oil pan and cross member for safety. The driver side mount bolts were a little tricky to reach with fuel pump and oil filter. I was able to get at them from behind, under the truck. The pass side was easily reached under the truck form the front. I let the engine back down, the studs on the new mounts dropped right into their holes on the engine stands. I replaced the nuts and tightened them. Unfortunately, I overtightened the pass side nut and broke the #^&!(^? stud on my nice new mount. The new one should be in today. At least I have practice now. It is a one hour or so, and pretty easy repair, especially if you don't break anything. :x
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Re: Engine mount replacement help

Post by FLATBEDFORD »

Oh yeah both mounts were completely separated. I guess it was a gravity fit!
Steve

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Re: Engine mount replacement help

Post by FLATBEDFORD »

All done. Replaced the one I broke in about 1/2 hour. I guess the practice helped. No more drivetrain shimmy anymore.
Steve

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