Brakes won't bleed!!!

[custom1106]

Alright.....I'll adjust the shoes all the way out...then bleed again. I also need to look at the rubber lines while a buddy pumps the pedal to see if any of them expands under pressure. Thanks for all the great advice. Ill check back with progress.

[fordman]

Last minute thought.
Are you SURE(!) your brakes are properly adjusted??? The symptoms are exactly like badly adjusted shoes.
You used the phrase 'had a little drag in them'. I have had wheels that 'had a little drag' that was caused by something else and the brakes were actually very loose.

This has been caused by having one of the newly installed shoes hang up on the backing plate and one shoe rubbed the drum but was not properly adjusted.

Suggestion: Just for fun, adjust all 4 brakes until they are locked up. (cant spin the drum) then check your bleeding and pedal height.

You keep describing a good bleed. If there truly is NO AIR in the system, then a low pedal can be caused by just one thing - too much shoe to drum clearance.

i knew i was missing something last night thanks for helping.

[Sam I Am]

...or else the brake shoe has fallen out of the notch in the wheel cylinder and the wheel cylinder is pushing nothing. Not likely though.
But if you've checked everything else it's time to start pulling off drums until you find something wrong.

[custom1106]

alright...the truck now has all new rubber brake hoses....still the pedal goes to the floor. All wheels have been adjusted untill they lock. Fluid will come out only when the pedal is almost to the floor. I put on a reman master from autozone....i'm stumped. Maybe I got a bad master? I've bled the system countless times and still can't get a pedal.

List of new parts so far...

Master cylinder
Both front wheel cylinders
All 3 Rubber brake hoses

[kaptnkaos]

I didn't see where you mentioned if they were vacumm assisst or manual. It could also be the diaphram in your brake booster. If you have done all of the above, there is not much else left to check.
KaptnKA S

I re-read your thread and still didn't this question answered. Do you have manual or vacuum assisst brakes???
You could have a bad diaphram in your booster... Your brake pedal itself could also be out of adjustment.

KaptnKA S

[custom1106]

Manual Brakes

[fordman]

i have to guess at the bad master cylinde or the rear wheel cylinders not moving because they are old and stuck. if you are gettign fluid out of all the wheel cylinders then the lines have to be clear.

[BRUTUS_T_HOG]

did you bench bleed the master cyl before you installed it? bleed the lines coming out of the master?

as was said before your brake pedal could be out of adjustment.. the pedal mounts could be loose.. wrong push rod length..

and of course you could have gotten a bad master if its a reman.. been there.

[kaptnkaos]

Hey custom1106

Dang I don't know how I missed it you said to manual drums in your very first post... Sorry, my bad.
Lets go through this systematically
New MC bench bled and installed.
The next thing would be wheel cylinders.
How many did you replace?
Brake hoses and brakeines
Adjusting, bleeding...
ANy one of those left out of the equasion can cause problems.

KaptnKA S

[custom1106]

Alright....went to autozone and exchanged master for another...same thing. The only other items in the system I havent replaced are the rear wheel cylinders. Everything else is new. When the pedal is pressed, plenty of fluid comes out of the rear bleeders, but barely anything comes out of the fronts. After is appears I have all the air out of the system.....still no pedal! I reaching the end of my rope on this one!

[fordman]

just because you get fluid out of the wheel cylinders doesnt mean the wheel cylinders are wokring. it just means fluid is going in and fluid is coming out. they might not be working the shoes. you will want to verify there correct operation. it sounds like there is still a leak in the rear system. what could be happening. with the rear wheel cylinders is : the rubber boots may be keepig the fluid from leaking out if its bad. and not letting the brake fluid build up pressure. but if you bled it that many times it should build enough pressure to make the rubber boot leak. unless the leaky cylinder was letting fluid out and then sucking it back in. that would not let them pump up and not show fluid any place leaking.
the front should have quite a bit come out of it when it gets bled. is your front crossmember brake line pinched shut? or dented. or maybe the main line down to the dist block dented or dirty. (clogging) mayeb there is something inside the front part of the dist block. did you vlesn those lines out from the master to the dist block and from the block to the wheels?

[m-mman]

Ok, obviously this is a difficult problem. If it were easy to solve you would be finished by now.
So, we all need to go back and c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y review EVERYTHING to try to figure things out.
Grasping at straws and trying the 'simple' things again and again is a waste.

In one of your later postings you said:

plenty of fluid comes out of the rear bleeders, but barely anything comes out of the fronts

Please explain further. (is this a factual statement or a typo of some sort?)
FACT: If you are NOT getting a GOOD STREAM OF FLUID out of the front brake bleeders then you ARE NOT actually bleeding them.

Lets review a complete detailed bleeding procedure:
1. Master filled with fluid on the bench
2. Rod like tool inserted in master. You have then either;
2(A) routed small bleeder hoses from the master outlets back into the reservior and 'stroked' the master until no more bubbles appear in the fluid in the reservoir
OR
2(B) covered BOTH M/C outlets with your fingers and 'stroked' the master unitl a good stream of fluid squirted from BOTH M/C outlets. Being sure to NOT remove your fingers from the outlets when the rod is released and the internal spring returns the cups and sucks fluid outta the reservior.

3. Bolt master cylinder to the firewall. What M/C Rod are you using?
3 (A) The original one from your truck?
OR
3(B) The replacement rod that came with the master cylinder?
Our trucks comonly have a clip on the tip of the rod that prevents it from coming out of the M/C without a lot of force so many replacement M/Cs come with a replacement rod. In fact sometimes they come with TWO rods! (mine did and one was WAY TOO SHORT)
A replacement M/C may have the hole in the back of the piston deeper or shallower than the original M/C (to fit multiple applications) and requires using the "correct" replacement rod to give the correct spacing from the pedal into the M/C.

4. M/C now bolted the the firewall. You PARTIALLY screwed the brake lines into the M/C. Your assistant Pushed SLOWLY on the brake pedal and you SAW fluid squirt/drip from BOTH OF the loose brake lines.

5. Your assistant HELD THE PEDAL DOWN while you tightened up both lines.

6. The assistant released the pedal. (you let the system 'rest' for about 15-30 seconds)

7. You depress the pedal and now what do you feel?
7(A) the pedal feels 'low' but it becomes firm and locks up and it seems like the brakes might stop the truck but the pedal is really low.
7(B) the pedal goes ALL THEY WAY TO THE FLOOR(!) I mean it hits the mat!
You cant get a piece of paper between the pedal and the mat/carpet. You know that there are no brakes and the truck would not stop.

8. Release the pedal check the fluid level in the M/C. It should still be close to the top. Replace cover so that it does not splash for the next part.

9. Have your assistant deprress the pedal (however far it goes to the floor)

10. Open the W/C bleeder farthest from the M/C. (Right Rear)
You should get either;

11(A) a good squirt of fluid (it should squirt about 4"-5")
OR
11(B) a hiss and/or a sputter of fluid.
Close bleeder have your assistant release pedal (let system rest for 15-30 seconds)
Have your assistant step on the pedal again. You should get a GOOD SQUIRT of fluid now if you did not the first time.

Repeat for EACH WHEEL (RR then LR then RF then LF) ending at the drivers front. Checking M/C fluid level between EACH wheel bleed.

Did you get a GOOD SQUIRT of fluid at EACH WHEEL??
Your quote above says that you did not get a good squirt at the fronts ???

OK, Please review what you have done so far and clarify EACH STEP for everyone.
Again, you have done all the easy shortcuts and the job is not finished. We all now have to go back the the VERY FORMAL procedure step by step to figure out the problem.

I am confident that we can figure it out, but not by short cutting or jumping over ANYTHING!

[kaptnkaos]

Something just came to mind...

If you replaced the front wheel cylinders, but not the rear, and you have a good stream of fluid at the rear and not the front,
Could you possibly have the brake lines at the MC in the wrong places ???
I had to get brass adaptors to be able to use standard NAPA brake lines with the NAPA MC.
Another possibility is that Autozone originally gave you the MC for vacuum assist brakes, which I believe requires a shorter push rod. When you returned it, they probably gave you one with the same part number. I'd double check that. Calll them and give them the part number to see what it is supposed to fit. It wouldn't be the first time someone has been given the wrong parts.
Before you do anything else at this point I would pull the wheels off and check to see if everything is still intact. Then systematically go through the system like M-MMan said.

KaptnKA S

[fordman]

that was the same thing i got from that. maybe the master lines are reversed.

[custom1106]

I bench bled the master untill no bubbles were present. Installed on truck with new rod, making sure the new and old rod were exactly the same. The masters are different. The one off the truck was smaller and had two equal size resiviors, while the new one has a small one in the front and a big one toward the rear. the smaller resivoir is hooked up to the rear brakes. The pedal has always gone straight to the floor with no resistance. Feels exactly like the original master. Even after bleeding. With the lines off the master I get nice squirts from both ports. It seems as though I can only get brake fluid out of the front wheel cylinders towards that last inch of pedal travel, even after all the air is gone.

I double checked the part # that Autozone gave me and it is correct as far as their catalog goes. I'm stumped. I've never had this issue before.